Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

Gtpy · 2017-10-29 12:43:09

Hi together,

I’m really new in the RFID field.
So can someone explain the main differences between Proxmark3 V2 an ChameleonMini?

With Proxmark you could have both: Hi and Lo

But are there any others advantages?

What is the best for a beginner?

The reason is I don’t own a Proxmark3 or a chameleon.
Prices are really different:
Elechouse Proxmark3 RDV ~200$ (http://www.elechouse.com/elechouse/inde … ts_id=2264)
Chameleon ~100$ (https://shop.kasper.it/chameleonmini/16 … rd-red?c=5)

I hope some of you experienced Researcher/Developers can give me some hints.

Thanks a lot.
Greetings from Germany
Gtpy

Last edited by Gtpy (2017-10-29 12:43:59)

iceman · 2017-10-29 14:19:42

If you search the forum you will find similar posts touching your question. If price is an issue, compare it with pm3 easy (rev3.0) which is a very much cheaper device.

Gtpy · 2017-10-29 18:01:42

iceman wrote:

If you search the forum you will find similar posts touching your question. If price is an issue, compare it with pm3 easy (rev3.0) which is a very much cheaper device.

Thanks. Price could be an issue, but for one of them it is ok. But I am not sure which is better for beginning.
Not that I buy the chameleon and be not amused that the proxmark Is so really better.

Thanks

Gtpy · 2017-10-29 19:00:46

Hi,
Checked the search but only find old posts about threads “which proxmark to buy “ etc.
I generally want to clone, analyze, sniff, cards.

Thanks a lot.
Gtpy

bertscookie · 2017-11-29 01:00:41

I am also deciding between the chameleon mini and the proxmark 3 easy. I am leaning toward the proxmark due to the holiday and lf capability and the community is bigger.

My only concern is the memory size. If I try to read more data than available memory from a tag will it fail? Would I have to read a few pages at a time rather than dump a full tag at once?

iceman · 2017-11-29 07:02:32

Don't know how many pm3 users who has both. Once you invest in buying a pm3 you kind of get alot out of it.
The field testing, simulation, is easier with chameleon but a pm3 wins the rest by miles.

bertscookie · 2017-12-02 03:57:30

Up front I would want the easier to simulate but I think pm3 is still a stronger choice.(not having purchased one yet). But can't the pm3 be scripted to carry out such actions?

iceman · 2017-12-02 08:58:05

Scripted? For standalone mode? No. Standalone mode means just pm3 device which runs on battery. Just like chameleon does, well, that is how the chameleon is designed to be like. It is its purpose. Pm3 doesn't allow for scripting in that state.

Just recently I added the functionality to "reconnect" a pm3 device which is running on battery with the pm3 client on computer again.
Closing the gap between the two devices even more. If you run the pm3 client on a android, raspberry pi, or something else to make it mobile then PM3 beats the crap out Chameleon.

Still Chameleon is small, slim, beautful designed, sneaky, so, it is in the fieldtesting/live it shines. PM3 has no chance as is in these scenarios.

my two cents.

zeppi · 2021-04-23 12:06:04

to be honest i did not find the chameleon to be of any realistic value for field use at all.

it is supposed to be easier to emulate cards you just acquired, but it is basically able to clone mifare UIDs.
If you want to emulate complete cards you will need extra tools and gone is the simplicity.
Also the UI is an atrocity

iceman · 2021-04-24 14:20:19

its open source, so feel free to contribute with improvements.

zeppi · 2021-04-24 16:05:10

no offense intended, but seemingly taken, sorry for that.
Of course, if people contribute free of financial benefit, that's great and we may expect what we pay for in that area.

But! At 99 bucks the product surely generates a not too bad revenue margin and at that price point doesn't feel like something you buy and then find to be of very slim to no use in practice.

The people who benefit financially of that could clearly make a better job at actually providing a product that does something of realistic benefit for the buyer. Otherwise the situation is win-lose and buyers might feel scammed.

Last edited by zeppi (2021-04-24 16:05:59)

iceman · 2021-04-25 01:46:25

No intended, none taken.
The manufacturers don't care much. They make the hardware and leave the rest. So you as a buyer, get the lovely experience of buying something for 99 bucks and the support you get is a replacement device if the hw is broken. The software, well you get directed to the open source repo and thats it. I think you misunderstand how those hw manufacturers think. In their mind, they already sold you a unit, they don't care after that. If you feel scammed, they don't care more than if the hw worked or not. You might think you bough a product with software support but you didn't.

zeppi · 2021-04-25 08:23:10

iceman wrote:

No intended, none taken.
The manufacturers don't care much. They make the hardware and leave the rest. So you as a buyer, get the lovely experience of buying something for 99 bucks and the support you get is a replacement device if the hw is broken. The software, well you get directed to the open source repo and thats it. I think you misunderstand how those hw manufacturers think. In their mind, they already sold you a unit, they don't care after that. If you feel scammed, they don't care more than if the hw worked or not. You might think you bough a product with software support but you didn't.

That is why I try to bring some transparence to that situation.
I image I am not the only person who bought the chameleon with wrong expections, as no one really says clearly how useless it actually is nowadays.

iceman · 2021-04-25 10:25:07

I disagree, I think it has its place in the eco system.
- Could it have better software, most definitely.
- Am I going to do something about? not more than I already done.
- Do I think the software will become better? no. I think it will die the usual slow open source death with no contributions.
- Do I use it? no, I have no real use for it since I sit at home w pm3 all the time.

When I go out in the field, looking at HF readers I bring it with me to see what can be done. For what it can do with the different fw, its quite capable. A typical use case would be covert sniffing MIFARE classic keys on such a system. I did it on my gym card which has the improved EV1 cards. The only way to get a key, was to bring the PM3 w a battery and custom standalone mode, or use a Chameleon. The Chameleon is covert and goes unnoticed, so it was a simple choice. Work like a charm. Presented the chameleon, went home, got the key, and then focused on the card to extract all card memory. With the version that has 8 slots, I have one slot loaded with my gym card.

- Would I use it as a reader/cloner ? never, since its intended design was never it. It was designed to simulate, which it does quite well.

If you are upset with the manufacturers to sell you something you had different expectations for. Well... its not like you didn't know before that it was an open source project. What did you expect? That hardware manufacturer would develop and maintain free software? They sell hardware.

zeppi · 2021-04-25 23:28:20

Certainly, what someone considers useful in the field may be different from person to person, and I clearly had expectations that did not meet the tool. Or vice versa.

I appreciate your answer as different views help to see what one may have overlooked.
So getting a key as main use... Is there no PM3 Blueshark standalone mode available which can do this?

On Simulation: I yet fail to see where is the benefit of this, if I need to prepare the dump somewhere and upload it to the Chameleon before I can use it in the field. Wouldn't it in this case be more natural to prepare a blank card as a clone? I honestly may be overlooking something, I am really asking (not just rhethorically).

I personally wouldn't use the Chameleon for day-to-day use to replace 1-8 cards with 1 device, but that's just my opinion. Likewise, I also wouldn't use the Keysy to replace 1-4 cards.

iceman · 2021-04-26 06:57:49

Maybe you don't use the 8 slots with minor changes in the uploaded dumps, to covertly test in the field.
Since the RevG support many different tech, you would need to care multiple different card and being able to program them.
There are more scenarios that comes to mind. However it all boils down to know your tools of the trade, master them, in order to be successful.

Remember it all started with you having an idea that you expected the chameleon to solve. Think about it, figure it out, if you need to modify things, be happy that its at least a open source project, so you can bent it to your will. And maybe you even submit it back upstreams to give back to the community.

I tend to see same thought patterns with people who do an implant. They want to be able to use it for work, or house, or washing room, or school, or pulic transport, realizing that there is a plethora of tech within RFID... Then they want multiple tech implants.

As you said, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean other do to. Its a big world. if the Chameleon would get iCLASS support, it would become a bigger thing in the US side. Right now the biggest benefit is the MIFARE support built i and ISO15693.
Skidata systems, I guess, having different ski passes in on device.

To finish this off, I suggest go back to your original though of what you wanted to accomplish and rethink it, now with knowledge of how finicky the Chameleon can be.

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#1 2017-10-29 12:43:09

Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#2 2017-10-29 14:19:42

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#3 2017-10-29 18:01:42

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#4 2017-10-29 19:00:46

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#5 2017-11-29 01:00:41

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#6 2017-11-29 07:02:32

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#7 2017-12-02 03:57:30

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#8 2017-12-02 08:58:05

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#9 2021-04-23 12:06:04

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#10 2021-04-24 14:20:19

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#11 2021-04-24 16:05:10

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#12 2021-04-25 01:46:25

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#13 2021-04-25 08:23:10

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#14 2021-04-25 10:25:07

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#15 2021-04-25 23:28:20

Re: Proxmark3 vs ChameleonMini RevG

#16 2021-04-26 06:57:49

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